Getting out of debt can be arduous but there are ways to change your debt status without changing your lifestyle
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Toni Husbands, one of the co-founders of the Debt Free Divas website and Midday Money Show podcast, sits down with Charged Up! to talk about her own journey out of debt, more than $100,000 worth, and how others can do the same thing while not sacrificing their lifestyles..
So, let’s get Charged Up! about getting out of debt in style with a Debt Free Diva!
Transcript: [Duration: 0:34:56]
HOFF: Toni, thank you so much for joining me today.
HUSBANDS: Thank you for having me.
HOFF: So let’s talk first about your own story with debt. I think advice can sometimes be much more relatable when someone has gone through the situation themselves. What kind of debt were you in? How did you get out of it, and when did you finally decide to do something about it?
HUSBANDS: Hmm\u2026 That’s the story of my life, isn’t it? [laughing] So my husband and I ultimately paid off $107,000 of consumer debt. I term \u2018Consumer Debt’ as everything outside of our mortgage, and so when I think about that, that’s six figures of debt, that could have been an entire house . But that was all credit cards, car loans, car leases, timeshares, student loan, like after like, we never met a loan that we did not say no to. [laughing] So we ultimately paid off $107,000. It took us seven years to do so, but it wasn’t like we woke up one day and we were $107,000 in debt. It was more of a process because we took a second mortgage on a home, we bought into a timeshare which is probably the worst thing over that I’ve ever, ever done, and at the point where I woke up and said or at least a bright light for me came on, we had at that point about $40,000 of debt, and at that point, I had just finished reading the book, “The Total Money Makeover” by Dave Ramsey. I had been married about three years at this point, and we had just decided to open a laundromat, so that’s where some of our poor decision and debt came from as well. But we had been trying probably for a year, year and a half before then to kind of really get a better handle on how we managed our money. We really never had that rock-bottom experience where everything just fell apart because we were both working, we both were decently employed, and I think that is kind of when you get into trouble. You’re not struggling, nothing’s falling apart, but you’re just not making traction and that was kind of the story of our life.
At that point somebody had given me that book. I had been reading a couple of other personal finance gurus, and nothing was really making sense. We would try to do a budget and we would spend all this time making this perfect spreadsheet. Both my husband and I are very technical. He’s an engineer and I was an IT professional, so you know, that analytical side was there. We did that, right? But we would spend all this time making these fancy spreadsheets that had macros and links and just color-coded and everything, and then we would close our computer and wouldn’t look at it again for three months. So basically, it was like we knew we needed to do something different. There was nothing forcing us at this point. We didn’t have any children yet. We didn’t have any children so we were living a, you know, a relatively comfortable lifestyle. But, when I looked up, I’m like, “We’re $40,000 in debt. I don’t have anything to show for it, except memories of great trips.” We have all this credit cards that we were paying the minimums on and at this point, we wanted to go into business, and we had decided I was going to quit my job. I guess that’s what kind of really made it come to a head. I decided I was going to quit my job so that we could open this business, and we were going to do all these great things, but at that point, we were basically living paycheck to paycheck, so that’s kind of where the whole idea of “We have to do something different,” came from. But mind you, the lightbulb came on, but we still ended up adding another $60,000 in debt on top of that.
So just because the lightbulb comes on doesn’t mean that you’re actually ready or, at that point, you’re doing what you need to do. So it took a few more years and a few more thousands of dollars in debt before I finally was like, “We just need to figure out, you know, we’ve got this information. We need to figure out a way to make this go away so that we can do some of the things that we want to do in life.” We wanted to have flexibility to do that. We didn’t want to be dependent on a 9 to 5, personally, myself. And so that was kind of the incentive for us eliminating that debt and open up more options in life, and so it took us seven years to do that, and we kind of talked about like the ups and downs of debt, and I say, you know, I wish I had one of those stories where it’s like, “Oh, I paid up all of this debt in 30 days,” you know? That wasn’t my story. It was a slow, long process of racking my head around, like what does it mean to really manage our finances? And then sticking with that over time, and then not giving up, having some setbacks, but ultimately, sticking with it until we accomplished that goal.
HOFF: So what were the big obstacles between when that first lightbulb went off and you said, “Okay, we’re $40,000 in debt. This isn’t very comfortable for us,” to when you actually decided, “Okay, now we’re going to actually make these changes,” and you stuck with them? What were the biggest obstacles that you confronted?
HUSBANDS: So the biggest obstacle would be both of us were not on the same page. I thought debt was a source of stress, and actually, it was for me, and it still is for me, a source of stress. It doesn’t represent that for my husband. So while we’re both very intelligent people and very reasonable to discuss things with, we had very different ideas about what it meant to be physically responsible. And I think that that was a major wake up call for me because it’s like I saw the world from my vantage point and from one perspective and he saw it from a very totally different perspective, and he could even reasonably argue his point of view, you know? So it took us a long time to even get to the point where this was something that we needed to do together, and that can be very frustrating, especially if in your mind, it would make total sense and it will be very easy if you would just do things my way, right? And it can’t, and it can be extremely frustrating, and so, you know, so that was probably the biggest problem. I’ll give you an example. I do not care for the concept of leasing. My husband was a big proponent of leasing cars, and he would give you his reasons why leasing was better than necessarily purchasing something new, and then because he likes cars, period. I’m not a car person, but so we just have that difference and I knew in my soul that just leasing was not a good fit for our life, but it was hard for me to explain that to him, or at least explain it to him in a way that he could appreciate, you know, where I’m coming from. And so we ended up taking another lease on a car, but this time, because I was always kind of talking about it from a conceptual standpoint or a theoretical standpoint, so we ended up taking another lease on a car, and we paid that off, but my thing, after we’ve gone through and we had this lease, $15,000 worth of a jeep lease, and I was thinking about it, after we paid off – I don’t know why this is like the cherry on the top for me, but we were turning the car in, and then they charged us an extra $425 for the privilege of turning it in. I just thought that was just like insult to injury to me. So we, you know, we paid $15,000, we turn this car in, and we had to pay an extra car note basically just to turn it in because we weren’t going to, you know, convert that over into a financing deal, and then we still didn’t have a car after that. You know, so that was kind of like a good lesson for both of us in terms of “Was this the best use of our funds?” Because then we ended up having of course to go buy another car, where had we maybe put that $15,000 into a late model, quality used car, we’d still have it after three years, but now we’re, you know, having to go through this whole process again.
We would have these discussions about or debates, and then it was one of the things where we had to actually kind of go through that together for both of us to really experience it for him at least to help understand. I’m not saying that he’s totally against leasing anymore, but now that we have that experience together whenever we go back into that discussion of pros and cons of leasing, we have this experience of, “You know, remember they charged us an extra $400 just to turn it in?” So it just becomes a point where we can kind of grow from that and learn together, but I think those are like in any marriage, it’s a process that you go through of learning together, learning how to work together, making mistakes together, and growing from those mistakes.
I like to say this: We were financial rock stars if you looked at it from FICO’s standpoint. We had great credit scores and that’s what we thought. We thought, “Oh, you know, you pay your bills on time, you know, you get a loan to finance big ticket items, that’s what you do.” This is kind of how we were raised – with the idea of people have mortgages for 30 or 40 years, that’s what you do. When you want to get another car, you go get a car loan. This is what you do, you finance everything, and I think it just took this desire to want to do something a little different with our lives versus working the 9 to 5 constantly, and that’s just my goal and my desire. We had to start to look at our finances a little bit differently. I’m like, “How do we live our lives? How do we prosper? How do we build wealth? Do all of these things if we’re constantly just working to pay bills?” And I thought like that’s what we were doing at first.
HOFF: Absolutely, and so what would you say to somebody listening to this right now who definitely feels like they’re in debt? They want to get out of debt, but they are struggling with how to communicate that with their partner or their spouse who may, like you said, have a different mindset. They may not be bothered by the debt. They might say, “Hey, we have two paychecks. We’re able to pay our minimum payments. Our credit score’s fine.” How would you suggest they approach this topic to get their partner on board?
HUSBANDS: So this was kind of a nice little trick that I stumbled into just by virtue of necessity. What I did to stop the arguments, stop the endless debates, the circular debates that were going nowhere – I decided that I could not change him, I was not going to change his mind. He had to kind to come to this of his own will, but what I could do is I could do what I could do in this relationship. So what did that mean? That meant I could stop eating out as much as I was because I mean that was a huge area of our budget where I found that we were spending a lot of money. Eating out, eating at restaurants, we lived in kind of a, you know, a slinky part of town and so it’s very walkable, it was very easy to go downstairs and go to nice restaurants and have dinner. It’s very easy, so instead of doing that, I started grocery shopping. I started to insist to myself that I would grocery shop on a weekly basis and cook more, so when I cooked, we didn’t go out and eat. So that was an “easy” thing, and that’s an easy in quotes because I don’t like cooking, right? That’s not my joy in my life. I can, I just don’t. It’s like chore, right? But it was one of those things that I could do. I could go to the grocery store, make sure that we have food because if we didn’t have food, he’s going out. My husband loves to eat so he was going to bring something in, so if there was food in the house, if somebody cooks, that was an area where we saved money. So, that was one of the things that I could do. Also, I love events and cultural activities, started looking at how we could enjoy, you know, life without spending tons of money. We went to the movies often. So instead of going out and going to the movies, we would get a DVD and then take in a free event in the park or a low-cost event at a local college or something like that. We started to, I guess, I would be the captain of our social social calendar, so I would start to look at things that were mostly free. There were a lot of\u2014especially in summertime, a lot of things that you could do, cultural events, city-funded, outings, concerts in the park, you know, things like that where, you know, I’m not paying $200 to go to see the latest band, but maybe I’ll go to a cultural event in the park where it’s free and then you just bring out our lawn chairs. You know, those are the types of things that we started doing where it wasn’t something where I’m telling him like, “Okay, you need to change your lifestyle.” I figured out ways that I could save money that didn’t necessarily impact his comfort level, and then I would apply those savings to our debt. And so at the beginning, I could only scrounge about\u2026 I think I started with like $400 a month. That was where I could find extra in our budget. I started, you know, doing my own nails and doing my own hair. Things that had no impact whatsoever on him, but that I could do on a consistent basis to make a dent in our debt, and it was small at first, okay? So it was $400, you know, taking $400 out of $45,000 doesn’t make a whole lot of\u2014
HOFF: Difference, yes.
HUSBANDS: Progress, at first, but instead of looking at it like, “I’m chipping off this big mound off $45,000,” I was looking at, “Okay, we have this credit card that has $500 on it.” So I put the $400 toward that and I crossed off that first small bill, and then from there went to the next one. And then, maybe it would take me a few months, but then I’ll cross off the next small bill. And then, as we were starting to make progress paying off some of these small bills, and as I was being consistent about, you know, saving money in areas where I was cutting in back in ways that didn’t necessarily negatively impact him, then we started to see like, “Oh, wow, there’s progress. Oh, wow, we can actually do this and it’s not causing us any major discomfort or anything like that.” I think that process probably took about a year, maybe a year, year and a half, but I think after about then, I was becoming consistent and I was building a habit and I would get excited about checking off another item on our list, and I share that excitement with him. I think that became a little infectious, and he became more interested in what we were doing. And so that is how he kind of came on board, and even though we still debate after that because my husband’s a big debater, so we would still have our debates, “Well, you could do this better if you do this,” but now we’re on the same team. Now, we’re on the same page and it wasn’t something where I was trying to make him take on this project or I was kind of make him change his ways. He came on board of his own free will and he brought his own perspective to the project, and then we became a better team and started to make more traction as we went along. So it took a while, I’m not going to say that it’s an easy process or was it something that happened overnight, and I had to think about that later because I was thinking like, well, guess what? It took me however long, you know, at this point, I’m in my 30s, it took me, you know, I’ll say ten years of adult-living, it took me however long it did to get to the point where in my mind where this made sense to me.
I was giving my husband the space and the time he needed to come to that point in his mind as well. But it just so happened that I was so excited about my little small win and we would celebrate, “Oh, wow, we did this, look!” And then I would talk about, “Oh, well, it will only take us six months putting $600 or whatever. It was to check this next item on the list.” So it became a part of the conversation, and I’ll say this too: Another thing I did which I didn’t realize was very helpful, as I started posting our budget, I would print it out and I would post it on the refrigerator. At this point, we had a really small condo so our kitchen’s kind of central, and I would post it on the refrigerator, and it was something that we looked at all the time. It was something we would stop and have conversations about, and he would again debate whether I had the math right, or you know, whatever it was but it became this central kind of conversation piece amongst us and it was something\u2014it became kind of like that star, night star kind of guiding us where we saw it all the time, so it was always on top of the mind. When I think about like activities I want to do, I’m starting to think, “Is this in our budget? How is this going to affect our budget?” Maybe this is something I want to do and I’m okay, you know, pushing things out a little bit because I want to take a trip, because I like to take trips, I like to travel, I like to take trips, and so I didn’t stop traveling, but what I did stop is I stopped putting them on credit cards. So I would only travel if I had the money to pay for it.
HOFF: Absolutely, so what would you suggest then to somebody who right now is in debt, they’re really identifying with your story, they’re saying, “Okay, I’ve got tens of thousands of dollars in debt too. Thank goodness, I’m not the only one.” Maybe they feel like they’re already kind of stretching their paychecks just to kind of make ends meet, they don’t know where they can sacrifice without making their lives uncomfortable, like you said, and you didn’t want to create discomfort for your husband so that he would be turned off from the idea, so what would you say are some things somebody could do right now to kind of start getting out of debt without sacrificing their lifestyles?
HUSBANDS: The biggest thing I would say for somebody to look at is your food budget because that is outside of your housing and utilities and things that don’t change. Your grocery bill or your food budget is the biggest variable area that really sinks people because it can be difficult to manage. So number one with that is to start making more meals at home. If you are a person that eats out 100% of the time, go slow, you know, maybe start this week with 2/3 of your meals at home, or, you know, two out of the three days, or things like that, you know, work, work up to it where you’re eating\u2014bringing your lunches or maybe you’re only eating dinners out once or twice a week, but that’s the biggest area that you could save money on, and it doesn’t change your lifestyle, and I say that from a person who does not like to cook. I’m not a foodie, I cook for function only, you know, I’m a Rachel Ray person, thirty minutes in and out. So I say that, but it is an area where you will find the biggest savings in your budget without making major changes to your lifestyle, and on top of that, it’s probably healthier. It’s probably healthier.
Now, one of the things and this is something even to this day, my husband was like, “I am not going to take my lunch,” and that was his non-negotiable. He’s like, “If I take my lunch, I’m going to eat it before lunch and then I’ll end up buying another one anyway.” So he has his budget and we just added it in. He had a budget, you know, a monthly budget for what he would eat out for lunch, and we stuck to that. Now, he was reasonable with it, but this is just one of those areas where I couldn’t change his mind and I, for the sake of harmony in our household, I stopped trying. So the dinners, you know, the dinners and breakfast, those are things that we could have at home. On the weekend, making those three meals on the weekend or six meals, I should say, on the weekend at home are ways that people can save tremendous amounts of money without changing their budget. Now, when we’re talking about grocery stores, the other thing you can do is think about where you’re shopping, okay? So are you shopping on the high-end of the retail spectrum in terms of your grocery store? And can you step down a notch? Can you find local grocery stores that don’t have the big advertising chains but offer just as, you know, the quality is just as good as your national chain. Those are areas where you can save money. Again, it doesn’t cost you anything extra, just from research, ask your foodie friends because they probably know where all the great, great grocery stores are, and that’s actually what I did too. I found like local neighborhood grocery stores that are fantastic and they have the best prices, and so those are areas where I save money because I’m not a foodie and I don’t do coupons, but those are areas where I save, you know, 30% from my budget, overall budget of switching grocery stores. Everybody can save money and everybody can realize immediately some wiggle room in their budget if they look at those things. Number two: entertainment. Entertainment is an area where I think people also need to be very smart about what they will and what not pay for. I’m a big proponent of finding ways to enjoy life because this can be a long and extended process, so if you can figure out how to enjoy yourself and how to have fun at life while you’re paying a debt. It won’t seem like such a struggle and such a chore. So again, take advantage of city-sponsored activities versus some of the big box, pop culture type items, you know, go take in a college-related show versus going to pay for something on Broadway, you know what I mean? I live in Chicago so summertime is fabulous in Chicago. We have movies in the park, we have, you know, free concerts in the park. There are festivals all summer long, and actually, even in the wintertime there are things that you can do. You can do ice skating which are $2 rentals, you know, you can get a sled and go sledding when the snow gets\u2014there are things that you can do to have fun, especially if you have little ones. Take them to the park, you know, if you already were near water, go to the beach. There are lots of things, especially when you get out and get into the outdoors, maybe plan some potlucks with your friends if, you know, if it’s inclement weather and things like that. There are things that you can do to enjoy life, to have fun without spending a lot of money, and I think those two areas, your groceries and your entertainment are ways that you can be creative and it doesn’t make you, like you said, you’re not eating, you know, ramen noodles and existing on beans and rice, because I think what\u2014if you’re not enjoying this, you will rebel against this and you won’t meet your goal.
HOFF: Absolutely and it’s funny because even I noticed, in my own city, there’s a lot of websites that are out there where they give you the list of all the free activities that you can do every single week with your children, free date nights. We have a child so we have to hire a babysitter when we want to go out, and I hate the thought of having to pay for a babysitter and pay for an expensive meal out and entertainment so we could do what the free date nights suggest, right?
HUSBANDS: Right, right.
HOFF: Pay the babysitter the money and we go see the movie in the park, like you suggested there’s something like that and it’s still fun. So that’s great, I really like that philosophy: Make it enjoyable, make it livable, so that you will actually continue the process. It’s the same thing they say with dieting, right? If you make it to be torturous on yourself, you’re just going to cheat and then you’re going to fall off the bandwagon immediately.
HUSBANDS: Right, and so if it takes you seven years like it took us, like hopefully, everybody doesn’t have to dig out of the same hole that we have, and that’s, I think our situation is pretty massive, but regardless if you have, you know, just a few thousand dollars or six figures worth of debt. However long it takes you, I think if you are enjoying the process and if you make this a lifestyle, and I think that’s what this becomes because even to this day, I still think when we sit in the park or the festival in the park or dance, I think those are some of the best things to do, and I still do those to this day versus paying $200 to go see the latest pop culture queen or something in concert or whatever, and now that I have kids, those are the things that my kids do, so this is our lifestyle now. I still enjoy this, and I think it all started with us trying to figure out how to save money on things, but also just kind of enjoy the process while we’re going through it.
HOFF: Yes, like looking at it as an adventure. We’re going to explore new things, try new things that we never would have tried before.
HOFF: So what would you say are three things somebody can do right now to start getting out of debt? You started with paying off the smaller bills that you could feel some victory over that, and if you got enough money that month to pay off those bills, do you suggest that’s what people do? Get small wins or tackle the most high-interest bills first? What are your suggestions, three steps they can do to start paying down debt?
HUSBANDS: I’m a big proponent of the snowball method which is yes, you, first of all, understand and get an idea of where you stand financially. I think when I actually added it all up and got that number in black and white, that made it real to me. Because I was just like, “Oh, wow, I thought we were doing okay.” It wasn’t that bad in my head but when you actually see what your debt total is on paper, I think it makes it more concrete and kind of opens your eyes, puts that lightbulb on and gets you like, “Okay, I have a project here that I need to tackle,” so that’s the first thing, understanding where you stand financially, and then yes, I would definitely arrange the bills that you have, the outstanding bills, if your goal is to be debt-free, from smallest to largest, and then take all of your available cash and attack that smallest one first.
There’s research actually that backs this up. There are two researchers from the University of Northwestern, their Kellogg School of Business that have recently found that people that attack their debt in debt snowball method, from smallest to largest, actually find more success and find that success faster than those that look at other avenues like attacking the ones with the largest interest rate or doing the largest one or things like that, and the reason is the quick wins give you momentum. That momentum is what is going to carry you through the rest of this, so if you’ve got that quick win, I’m telling you, when I scratched that first $500\u2014it was really small, and you like, “Why are you paying the minimum with $500 worth of credit card,” but that’s what we do, right? So when I actually paid that one off, it really clicked in my head, like, “Oh, wow, this is actually doable.” It feels good to actually have accomplished something because when you’re, you know, spreading your money around and paying minimums, you’re kind of spinning your wheels and you’re really not making much traction, if any. And so once you start with those smaller ones, you get those quick wins under your belt. That’s going to give you the momentum and the encouragement to know that you can stick with this when you start to hit some of those large bills, like your car loan or your student loans, or things like that, and it’ll also give you the spending power that you need to make greater progress because when you’re paying $1,000 a month toward a debt, you start to see that you’re making a dent faster and even that is helpful in terms of giving you the motivation and encouragement to stay with it.
HOFF: Okay, and any other tips that you would say somebody needs to take away right now if they want to start chipping away at that debt and they just don’t know where to start?
HUSBANDS: I would say, oh, and here’s another thing that I did which I definitely suggest. Surround yourself with examples of success stories. So whether that is listening to a podcast like this or maybe you’ll find something on YouTube. There are plenty of people on YouTube that talk about their success stories. I listen to podcasts myself and I would love to listen to debt-free podcasts, and I think hearing other normal, everyday people talking about what they were able to accomplish, and also sharing their strategies for success, because everybody has different things that work for them based on where you live or, you know, are you in a, you know, a more expensive city versus are you in the place that has less cost of living? Are you in the coast? I think that there are things that you can believe from all types of stories, so I would definitely, if you liked this one, find this podcast, subscribe to it so that it pops up weekly. So that you constantly bombard it with success stories because eventually, that’s going to be your story.
HOFF: Oh, I love that. That is true. It is something where you want to surround yourself, constantly reminding yourself that other people have done it too and here’s how they did it, so you don’t get into this rut of just thinking you’re all alone in this debt misery and you have no way out of it.
HUSBANDS: And then my other suggestion is to find an accountability partner. I had my husband, so we were kind of bouncing things back and forth from each other. Your spouse may not be on board yet, so find an accountability partner or accountability group. Maybe it’s people that you work with, maybe it’s your family, somebody that’s on this journey with you because I think what you just said is like, so like sometimes you’re all alone and this, and the thing about is we’re not, and when you start to suffer in silence, we can get discouraged and talk ourselves out of what we’re doing or make ourselves think it’s too hard. But you have that accountability partner who you’re encouraging one another, you’re slapping each other on the back, and high-fiving when you hit a goal, somebody that could celebrate your small wins with you, somebody that can hold you accountable, because, “Oh, I’m going to go for a quick trip to the Bahamas.” They say, “You were trying to meet this goal, then how is that going\u2014“ you know, sometimes, you give people permission to kind of speak into your life like that. It does hold you accountable and we can be flexible with ourselves a lot, sometimes I find that “I’m really flexible with myself,” but when I have to answer to somebody else or when I think I might be letting somebody else down, then I tend to put a little bit more effort.
HOFF: Absolutely. It’s like creating your own little weightwatcher’s group for your financial life.
HUSBANDS: Right. Exactly, exactly, so yes, I think that’s one of the things that my site, Debt Free Divas, that we definitely try to connect people and you know, create that community where people are trying to pay off debt. We want to encourage you because it can be a long-term endeavor. It’s not, unfortunately, you didn’t get into this situation overnight and so it’s not, you know, unless you, you know, hit the lottery or you have long lost, you know, wealthy relative who just leaves it all to you which doesn’t happen. I’ve never heard of that, but it doesn’t happen too often. So more than likely, this is going to be a push that we need to stay focused on for, you know, for a period of time. But the thing about it is once you develop the habit and then that muscle, that will take you. That will take you and keep you focused and keep you motivated and keep you consistent. And I think that’s one of the things, again, more research for this, Dominican University researchers have found that people are 33% more likely to reach their goal if they write them down, review them weekly, and share them with a friend, so I think accountability is like the secret sauce in this.
HOFF: Absolutely, and finally, Toni, what gets you charged up now about living a debt-free life?
HUSBANDS: Options. Let me say that again: options, definitely gives you options, and I didn’t even know we needed these options when we first started this, but I work from home but I’m able to be home with my children which gives us the flexibility to, you know, I’m not going to have to rely on very expensive day care. I have been able to\u2014I love to travel, I told you that. I love to travel and not having to coordinate two people’s schedule because my work from home situation is a lot more flexible, we do lots of trips, day trips. My husband travels for a job and so we can pop in and stay with him for a while to just give us the flexibility, I think, to live a life now that is, I think a little less stressful than when we were both in corporate America, but also it gives us the flexibility to try some of the things that are a little more near and dear to my heart which, again, is entrepreneurship, helping other people, being home with my kids.
HOFF: That’s awesome.
HUSBANDS: Now this is my new thing that I’m trying out. It’s so awesome, like “Why am I doing this?” But again, we have the option and the time to do that, and I did it again, but I have the option to have this experience right now.
HOFF: Absolutely, absolutely, I love that. Thank you so much, Toni. This has been a great conversation. A lot of good tips, you know, a lot of useful information. Again, your website, debtfreedivas.org gives tons of information to people. You guys have your own podcast, you have your own group where you can hook people up with other people to get them encouraged and motivated, and just listening to you, I can tell you feel very free in your life and very happy, and that’s quite an accomplishment, so congratulations.
HUSBANDS: Thank you so much. It was great talking with you.